divine angst

comments

All good points. Ms. Dr. TP was emphatic about keeping her own last name, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that she straddles two cultures. She is Japanese, but has lived in this country for almost half of her life now (was 14 years on April 1). In Japan, where history and records go back many hundreds of years, family trees and names are arguably even more important than they are here (family is important everywhere, of course, but Japanese people are almost obsessive about family names).

But why not make that statement through your name and encourage your husband to perform some reparations?

Ethan, I assume you mean by asking my husband to take my name?

I don’t like the concept of reparations for one. And his last name is easier to spell.

I think it’s a valid argument to say it’s chauvinistic for the husband to expect the wife to take his name. Yes, her name came from her parents, but it’s still hers — it’s the name she answers to and the name that formed her identity.

I think the key word, if you want to accept that argument, is “expect.” If the guy is willing to consider other possibilities, it’s fine. But if he insists that she take his name, I do think it’s a bit chauvinistic. If he just wants to be a marital unit — the reason you gave for changing — then why not take her name, or choose a new name? Why is his identity more important than hers?

By the way, I’m a fellow name-changer, and I had pretty much the same reasons as you. We’re a family, so we wanted to share one name. (In our case, it was easy — not only was tradition on our side, but also I liked the idea of having a name that people could actually spell and pronounce.)

You know, CM, you’re right. My example wasn’t the best. I guess I should have said that I’m particularly bothered when women refuse to take their husbands’ names outright—or state that they WOULD refuse to do so, without having the discussion of whether or not they should. It becomes an absolute, and I don’t think it’s an issue of “yes” or “no.” Every situation is different.

I’m also bothered by the (presumably) feminist contention that any woman who takes her husband’s name is falling prey to some anti-woman societal trap. I had very good reasons for taking my husband’s name, and if they are good enough for me, that’s really all that matters.

To be fair, I think this is an issue that is getting less black and white as many professional women who consider themselves feminists run into the issues raised by having children in a family with two last names. There’s more discussion of it now.

My wife kept her name because of her professional reputation (she’s an attorney). It simply would have been too much trouble for her to announce the new name and then revamp all of her credentials, experience, etc. Plus her maiden name carrys a *huge* amount of cache around these parts… it would have been really silly to give that up. Besides, my last name is dreadful! I don’t think I would have *let* her change her name.

So, in a marriage where each person keeps his/her name, what name do the kids get? Do they just flip a coin? Rock-paper-scissors? I was just wondering (I don’t know any of these couples).

Oops, meant to say more there. For the kids, I would say to pick the one that sounds the best with the first name, but then you might end up with siblings with different last names, which just seems weird to me.

I dunno. Okay, I’m done now.

Depends on the couple. I think the most common scenario is that the kids get their father’s name. In some cases, the kid gets a hyphenated name. Some couples decide which last name the child gets based on some criteria—what last name sounds best with a first name, whether the child is a boy or girl, or they just go back and forth.

Our kids will probably get my name. Or maybe we’ll alternate.

I think the ladies are doing a bit of ex post rationalization. If you are just interested in sounds, you could pick any name. Why your husband’s? Because it sounds good? Lame! A lot of names sound nice. Family unit? Why is his unit more important that yours? I don’t buy it. I think social pressure has a lot to do with why these decisions get made, even among the enlightened–and that pressure is traceable to invidous sexism. Go along with it if you want. That’s your choice. But don’t be disappointed when your daughters still live in a deeply sexist world.

Cool. That’s about what I figured. I just wanted to make sure there wasn’t some easy solution I hadn’t thought about.

About the kids’ names — there was just a thread on AskMetafilter about changing names and what to name the kids. A surprising number of people said they were thinking about alternating or giving the boys the father’s name and the girls the mother’s name, or some similar scheme. I think it would be extremely confusing if your kids all had different last names.

Ethan, you’re right that social pressure has to do with the name-changing decision — the default is for the wife to take the husband’s name. But I think that’s changing. Lots of women are keeping their own names these days, maybe because they’re getting married later and have built professional reputations on their maiden names. As long as both men and women have the option of changing their names, I don’t think following tradition is that sinister in this case. Even if it started out as a sexist tradition.

Hm. You can count me in as one of those women who refused to take her husband’s name outright - before she met her husband. I have known since an early age that I would never change my name. I told my parents something to that effect when I was seven.

I am not sure you need to be able to express why you do or don’t. Why can’t your decision just be taken at face value: this is who I am, this is what I want, this is what we have worked out. Can’t a 21-year-old bride legitimately feel that taking her husband’s name is chauvanistic, not because her name is just her father’s, but because her name is hers? Must she really have a good explanation? Surely not all women who change their names have good explanations - why the dual standard?

I’ve also never agreed with the argument that your birth surname is just your father’s name so it shouldn’t matter. I think that argument completely misses the point about keeping your name: it’s not about patriarchy, it’s about the identity you have carved out for yourself in your life. Yes, my surname is my father’s name. But it’s *my* name now, the name I have worn and honored and turned into my identity. It is who I am. It is completely different than my husband’s name, which has not been the way I identified myself throughout the years.

I didn’t keep my name solely for professional reasons, though I do have publications and other professional information that I didn’t want lost. I kept it for deeply personal reasons, and, to be honest, I sometimes resent the implication that the only good reason to keep your maiden name is for professional reasons. I would have kept my maiden name even if I had married at twenty with no professional identity in place. Put simply, it is who I am.

My husband’s feelings on the matter: he’s Catalan in origin and in his familial culture, women do not lose their names. In fact, the idea is rather oppressive to both him and his family. His mother told me point-blank not to change my “beautiful” last name. (It is beautiful, I think.) His family in Barcelona always address me by my surname, not his.

The only relative who gave me a hard time about it was my grandmother who still stubbonly insists on calling me “T. HusbandSurname.” She’s 83 so I let her do whatever she wants, though I think it’s rude.

Our son: Our son is named like the Catalans do it: he has four names. Firstname Middlename MySurname HusbandSurname. Middlename is Catalan, as his first name is American. He goes by Firstname HusbandSurname on an everyday basis. It has never been a problem. Of course, we live in an area with lots of kids who have four names. People are generally open-minded here.

A few people told me that I would find it really hard to have a different last name than my son. So far this hasn’t been the case, but he does carry my name, and that was important to me. Of course, he looks like a male clone of me, so there is no mistaking my identity as his mother. Maybe if he didn’t look like he was the product of asexual cloning it would have been harder on me.

Our family and public linkage: Both of us refer to our family as the ‘The HusbandSurname Family.’ I am completely comfortable with this. I like my husband’s name and I’m proud to be part of a family grouping with it. I do not see this as contradictory.

Bottom line, we’re happy with our choice. I am respectful of those who change their names. Usually, but not always, I get the same respect in return.

Oh, T., I don’t mean to implicate that I don’t respect your choice. I deeply respect anyone who makes the choice to keep their name, particularly because of the expectations in our society that they WON’T keep their name.

But this discussion originated because someone wanted to know why women who otherwise consider themselves “feminist” DO change their names. Why do feminists who change their name have to do so much explaining as well?

I don’t mean that everyone has to have a deep, serious reason to keep OR change their name, just that they be able to explain why, even in the smallest part. “Because I wanted to,” is a good reason, as is “Because it’s easier to spell.” I am most bothered, I guess, by women who make the last name issue an ultimatum and refuse to see the other side.

What if your husband HADN’T been happy to see you keep your name? And you had remained firm in your decision? What happens then? I worry that young women who don’t REALLY know why they are or are not changing their names refuse to have these discussions, and that’s a sad thing.

Sorry, Kristine, I realize my last statement implicated you. Sleep deprivation == unclear writing. I didn’t mean to have it include you - I meant in general people respect my choice, but I’ve run into people who didn’t and who were quite obnoxious about it. I know you do - that doesn’t refer to you!

As for your question (what would I have done if my husband had wanted me to change my name) - it’s interesting, but I never seriously dated anybody who insisted on it. I made it clear very early on that it was non-negotiable, like within the first month or so. You’d be surprised how often the topic comes up in casual conversation with friends; I never had to plot to say anything or something dumb like that. It just came up naturally on its own.

I don’t think this is a coincidence. I think that the men that I dated seriously, and thought about marrying (and of course, in one case, did marry) had other personality characteristics that I really liked and respected - and those characteristics made it unlikely that it would be a big deal for them that I change my name.

The men I dated who told me that they wanted their wives to change their names were never serious relationships. I dated them, I had fun with them, I liked them (and still do), but I would never have married them (and vice versa).

So I guess I don’t know. It seems to me that in my case, because it was such a non-negotiable for me, I always attracted men who didn’t care. I mean, I eventually ended up with a Catalan family who thinks the American tradition is oppressive! How is that for serendipity? *I* don’t even think it’s oppressive.

Oh, and you are right about feminists: while most women don’t have to explain changing their name (while those of us who keep it frequently do), the situation is reversed for a woman who considers herself a feminist.

I think that may be changing, though. Us gen-Xers (well I am, in any case) seem to be more lacksaisical about names in general: do what you will, it’s okay, whatever works sort of attitude.

My wife never thought about not changing her name (or so she says), and I would’ve been slightly bothered if she hadn’t for 3 reasons:

1. It just shows a lack of commitment. We are equal, but American tradition has the wife accepting her husband’s name. If this was a sticking point, then obviously we have bigger problems than names.

2. I have heard from friends who kept their names that there is quite a bit of administrative hassle when buying a home, car, etc. when you have two different names.

3. Kids deserve to feel part of a unit. They also deserve not to get their asses kicked because they have some kind of hyphenated, wussy-sounding last name like Barkley-Smithe. Where does it end, anyway? What if a Centinel-Herringbone married a Jackson-Walker? Would they become Centinel-Herringbone-Jackson-Walkers???

Don’t worry, C. I have a strong feeling — almost a premonition — that your kids will get their @ss kicked regardless.

By my kids, hopefully.

Replying to Centinel here:

1. Hm. I feel exactly opposite. If my husband had been so insecure in my commitment to our relationship that he insisted I change my name to prove my commitment, it would have been a huge warning sign to me that the relationship was not strong. To each his own.

As for commitment, we’re going on 12 years now.

2. My husband and I have bought and sold property, established a trust and a will, bought and sold cars, taken out loans, paid off loans, sold stock, set up retirement accounts, exercised stock options, and a host of other complex financial transactions with two separate names. It has never been a problem, not once.

Of course, we live in an area of the country with many immigrants and families with all sorts of different name structures. I suspect that makes a difference.

3. TP made me giggle.

T: really? In the first month you would say to someone you were dating, “By the way, if we get married, I’m keeping my name?” (And they weren’t out the door as soon as they heard “married?”)

Centinel is right on one point–if the name thing is a huge sticking point, the relationship probably wasn’t meant to be. Disagreement on this issue is probably a sign of more fundamental differences regarding the nature of relationships and gender roles within them that will cause trouble later.

Centinel, the arrangement you and your wife have seems to work for you. That’s fine. But you’re way off base to suggest that women who choose to retain their own names lack committment to the marriage.

The hassle is a non-issue as well. Plenty of couples make it work. And how often does a couple buy a house or a car? Often enough that the convenience warrants a woman giving up her identity? Probably not. Maybe it is a pain, but this is not a convincing argument for why a woman should change her name.

As for naming the kids, open your mind a little. There are plenty of other options than hyphenated names. And is there any evidence that children feel less a part of a family if they don’t all share a last name? Will my child not know I am his mother and that I love him? And that I love his father?

CM - I’m not sure why on earth it worked out this way for me, but for every guy I dated seriously the conversation did come up in the first month - and I was never the one to bring it up! Either we were out with friends, or I dunno, saw something in a book, or something. All I ever said when the topic was brought up was, “Keeping my own name is very important to me. I’d talk about changing it if it were important to the man in question I’d consider changing, but it is very important to me.” And that was that.

Of course this makes it sound like there was a huge crowd of men that I dated seriously, which there wasn’t. The beginning of my serious relationships were always kind of intense, by which I mean we spent a lot of time together and talked a lot about a whole wide world of topics.

I don’t know how I would have handled it if that hadn’t been my experience. I think I would have certainly considered changing if the man in question had felt strongly, but I don’t know - I think anonymous is right. If you fundamentally differ on naming and can’t understand each other’s points of views, maybe there are deeper problems.

It’s hard for me to say, though, because I was never in that position.

I want to weigh in here on the last name issue in regards to children, because, while I understand the desire to have the same last name as your kids, I don’t see it as that big of a hassle and, for me, at least, the issue of what last name to give my kids would NEVER have entered into my decision to change my name.

My parents were divorced when I was quite young and my mother remarried shortly after that. So before I even started school, my last name did not match her last name. And it hasn’t since. You know what? This was NEVER a problem, ever. I don’t even recall ever having to EXPLAIN it to people—the assumption was that my mother had remarried, so of course she would have a different last name.

Now, maybe the common assumption, when a mother’s name doesn’t match her child’s, is that she has been divorced and remarried. And maybe there are women out there who would otherwise have kept their names but didn’t because they didn’t want to be branded as divorcees. Or maybe other women grew up in the same blended kind of family I did and resented having to explain the name differences and don’t want their children to experience that. I don’t know. I do know that families with multiple last names are pretty darn common nowadays, and the argument that it’s hard not to share your child’s last name is a weak one, in my mind.

I’m recently married and am now going through the issue of what name my wife will take or not take. She has expressed all the reasons above for not changing, identity, family name, etc. She is a great lady and I am blessed to have her as my wife. But this causes me stress and I’ll tell you why:

I believe in the Christian model of a marriage, that two people become one and that the man is the head of the family. This does not mean superior, or anything like that. It simply means appointed by God to lead in spiritual matters. In fact, the woman often is the leader of the family in a great many things, and is often the emotional center of the family. But someone has to lead. It is the model by which we were created. It is not demeaning to the lady. Jesus made a point of showing honor and respect to women. But the man should be the leader, and the name change, at least to me, is partly a signification of this. Most women want this. Most women don’t want a nebulous, ineffective, “equal” man with no strong or intentional characteristics.

I also have to agree (at least in content if not presentation) to Centinel’s comments on children. The hyphenating of kids names is getting a little out of hand. I mentored a middle school boy with a mother-father hyphen and I have to admit, it seemed a little sad to me. His name said to me, ‘I have a strong mother and an agreeable father’ and it seemed like a saddle upon his back. Centinal used the expression ‘wussy-sounding’ This is coarse, but not that far off the truth. Ladies might not appreciate this as much as men.

Finally, I liked what one person said about going along with the tradition in the name of unity. We could all be separate, single, or even ’shacking up’ But hey folks, let’s try to embrace the institution of marriage and actually unite. The name change is a big part of this public declaration.

The fact that my new wife doesn’t want to change her name causes me sufficient distress that I have actually considered changing my name to hers. I have a question for the ladies out there who want to keep their name. What do you think of that option? How would you feel if you told your husband you were keeping your name, and he went and changed his so you could share names?